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Kyle Star's avatar

Uh oh, I have a post scheduled for release in an hour that is less than charitable to this view, lol.

Unfortunately I just think the question “Would you rather pet a cat or stab the eyes of 1,000 humans” has an objective moral answer. I think any attempts to say one is not a bad person for choosing the latter would be difficult, and it does probably imply corrective action if you choose the latter. It’s really hard to say that this has an answer, and the question “would you rather save $10, or torture 1,000 chickens” doesn’t have an answer.

I don’t think you’re a bad person for not donating to shrimp, I think *we’re all* bad people with good intentions, myself included. I detachedly agree we’re all causing an inordinate amount of suffering every day, while living a happy life. I spent more on rent in the past year than I’ve ever donated, to anywhere, for anything. I can do the math on that, it probably means I’ve killed millions. Honestly, I think Scott Alexander’s reasoning to why 10% donating is enough is weak, and that’s the only thing I can think of that we disagree on.

I think the difficulty of moral actions is not a strike against the truth of moral facts about the world. If I lived in a world where I had to dedicate 18 hours a day to save a trillion people from torture, the horribleness of the world I live in does not mean I’m spared from thinking about morality. The unreasonableness of being a truly, efficiently good person is a TERRIBLE fact about earth, but that doesn’t make the suffering not real.

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Jordan Meadows's avatar

This was an intriguing piece. I genuinely enjoyed reading it. I've been following your recent posts on morality, so I was especially eager to read this one. I do think moral objectivity exists, and I think you nailed a key point of my philosophy: error correction is essential to any objective improvement in morality. I had a few thoughts I wanted to share:

You’re absolutely right about the necessity of corrections in this framework you're criticizing. But one thing I want to push back on is the assumption that all corrective actions are themselves moral. I don’t think that holds up. It’s entirely possible to be morally right in principle but wrong in the way you try to correct that view—especially if it involves coercing others into compliance. Seems to be a kind of paternalism, and I don't think that's necessary or desired here.

I also agree with your point about the language we 'realists' use implying moral superiority, or suggesting that those who disagree should feel guilt or shame. I’m not entirely sure if this was your intent, but I do think there’s value in self-directed guilt—that is, feeling guilt as a result of one's own moral reflection, which can then lead to meaningful corrective action. That seems very different from imposed shame though, which only on rare occasions do I think warranted LOL.

Regarding thought experiments like the Trolley Problem, I think one of their major flaws--and one moral relativists, subjectivists, etc. have--is that they frame the situation as a strict binary. But in reality, people often have more than just two options—they just have to imagine or create them. The dichotomy isn't based in reality.

A similar point I’d challenge is the idea that there’s a single moral answer and a single immoral one. I don’t think morality is that tidy. There are infinite moral and immoral options. Even if someone is doing something you view as immoral, that doesn’t necessarily make your view moral—or more moral—or mean both positions can't have moral merit.

Take your example of saving your child versus saving 100 strangers. It’s not necessarily about one choice being right or wrong, but rather about the reasons behind each choice. Maybe I have stronger reasons for saving the 100 people—but we’d need to work that out through criticism and discussion. Prioritizing your child over others isn’t necessarily immoral; it just might not be the best moral option available. And perhaps a better option could be created—one that allows you to save both your child and more people.

Your line—“Sure, there are probably better ways to initiate moral change than obnoxious corrective actions like shaming, guilting, or inflicting the law on someone, but failing to exhibit the willingness to use these tools implies a lack of authentic moral seriousness”—was probably my favorite part of the piece. It’s a compelling insight for me personally. I agree that guilt and shame can be part of the process, but they’re not always necessary. What matters most is constructive criticism—and for that to work, someone has to be willing to reflect and change. If you’re not open to that, you won’t feel guilt in the first place because you think you're already right.

Your line—“The objective moralists want to take away your freedom because they disagree with you”—made me think of an extreme case, like owning slaves. Isn’t that exactly the kind of freedom we should take away? One of the issues I have with moral relativism (not trying to label your position, just responding to the concept) is that it seems to offer no solid argument against things we know are wrong. It is moral to stop people from owning others, and immoral to allow it. So yes, it restricts one kind of freedom, but only to preserve a far more essential one for everyone.

I also disagree with the idea that objective morality requires abandoning individuality. On the contrary—I think individualism is essential. There are infinite possible moral explanations, and it’s through individual reasoning and freedom of thought that we discover better ones. Individual moral reflection is often what leads to institutional progress—like the abolition of slavery.

Lastly, and sorry it's been a long comment, if morality doesn’t require corrective action, I struggle to see how it could exist meaningfully at all. If everyone is fallible, and it’s always possible to act better than we did before, then moral progress must involve ongoing correction. Without that, what’s left?

Keep up the great work. I know this took some real contemplation and reading. It can get overwhelming so I applaud it.

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